David Jones 0:00
This is a quick warning that this episode is about poop. And we talk about poop. And to be honest, we're pretty glib and profane about how we talk about it. No, seriously, we say, sh** and butth*** a lot. And if that offends you, or any little sh**, who might be listening. You might want to wait on this episode.
Welcome to Hear Phyto. A podcast about herbs. Eh, it's mostly about herbs
Jeanine Adinaro 0:26
Hear Phyto is what happens when you take one herb nerd and one podcast enthusiasts, and give them microphones. We're both herb loving acupuncturist who hear a lot of bad information about herbs.
David Jones 0:36
So in each episode, we're going to try and teach the good from the bad about one herb or supplement.
Jeanine Adinaro 0:42
David Jones 0:43
and I'm Dave. This is Hear Phyto.
Ok. I am recording.
Jeanine Adinaro 0:52
David Jones 0:53
All right. Hey, everybody. Welcome to Hear Phyto. This is Dave. We've got Jeanine here. Today we're going to be talking about...
Jeanine Adinaro 1:01
David Jones 1:01
We're gonna be talking about poop. Jeanine is very excited to be talking about poop. So Jeanine, tell us your - you have a poop story.
Jeanine Adinaro 1:09
I have so many. I live with two small boys ages ten and six. Poop stories come up a lot in my house.
David Jones 1:17
Alright, so what's your poop story?
Jeanine Adinaro 1:18
But today we're going to talk about poop as it relates to medicine, and poop as it relates to health. And not poop as an indicator of health.
David Jones 1:27
I was going to say, like taking good poops?
Jeanine Adinaro 1:29
Right. So that's a whole different topic.
David Jones 1:30
Yeah, we're not talking about that.
Jeanine Adinaro 1:31
We're going to talk about poop as it shows up in medicine, which I find to be so counterintuitive. And to really emphasize how counterintuitive I think the idea of using poop as medicine is, I was reminded of a story. This isn't my story. I wish it was my story. But a friend of mine when he was in college, took Kung Fu for PE credit. And the teacher who and I... I didn't, I never met him. I don't know. Maybe it was genuine. But he, I think probably promoted that sort of Yoda like quality.
David Jones 2:12
Jeanine Adinaro 2:13
Yeah. The instructor was from China. And he and he comes in, on the day that they're supposed to be talking about self-defense. That's on the syllabus for the day is self-defense. And he comes in and he writes the word "shit" on the board. That's all he writes. And he turns around, and he says,
"Shit, dirty. Shit make you stink. Shit make you sick. Stay out of shit. That is self defense." And like that was it, and he turned around and walked out of the room.
David Jones 2:52
Jeanine Adinaro 2:53
So I mean, I think that very intuitively, humans avoid poop. Because it's dirty and it's stinky, and it makes you sick. Right? We wash our hands after we use the bathroom for a reason. So the idea that poop comes up in a positive medicinal context is completely outrageous.
David Jones 3:15
I reached out to our, when we were talking about doing this episode, I reached out to our herb distributor, Wilson, and asked him about some of the sort of poop related things and I got an email from him that was basically like, "It's inherently filthy. We don't sell it." Okay, got it. So we have several types of poop to talk about today, including cat poop and squirrel poop and human poop.
Jeanine Adinaro 3:47
We got poop all around.
David Jones 3:50
Okay, you want to start with the? You want to start with the...
Jeanine Adinaro 3:56
Chinese medicine and poop
David Jones 3:57
Chinese medicine and flying squirrels.
Jeanine Adinaro 3:59
David Jones 4:00
So there is a flying squirrel that lives in the mountainous region is southern China. Right? It is the Trogopterus xanthippes is the, for whatever reason is that I remember that, but it's the, it's a, like the complex toothed flying squirrel.
Jeanine Adinaro 4:20
Becuase I don't want to be that simple toothed flying squirrel.
David Jones 4:23
Exactly. And this squirrel's poop is used in Chinese medicine. Most notably, there's a formula called the Sudden Smile Formula, that is a mixture of this poop and cat tail pollen. And it is called Sudden Smile because if you are in pain, generally sort of menstrual cramping kind of pain. And you take this formula, it works so quickly and so completely that it'll cause a sudden smile. That's the story behind it. Right? And so, you know, this is the sort of thing that leads into
Jeanine Adinaro 4:56
The corner of the original recipe is torn off. And the other third ingredient is opium.
David Jones 5:04
So, anytime you have an odd sort of herb, it always leads someone to ask the question, which is, how did anyone think that was good idea?
Jeanine Adinaro 5:14
Who thought to put flying squirrel poop into the menstrual cramp formula?
David Jones 5:18
So in Chinese medicine, they talk about a certain class of herbs as being blood movers. Right? We would talk about those in western medicine as being you know, either blood thinners or
Jeanine Adinaro 5:29
David Jones 5:30
Anti-inflammatories, it works in that sort of set of things. And if you think about a flying squirrel, it moves easily through dense brush. And you can imagine someone, several hundred years ago, thinking that if they could imbue upon you some aspect of the characteristic of the squirrel moving easily through dense things, then that might change how your blood flows, which seems to modern ears absolutely ridiculous. But in a sense, they were kind of doing science, right? They had a hypothesis. They tested it. And they got a conclusion.
Jeanine Adinaro 6:09
No, no, honey, it's gonna be great. I want to put some of this squirrel shit in here, you're going to feel much better.
David Jones 6:15
And, and, well, the fact is, that they did. Now here's why. As it turns out, there's always some university student in China getting a master's degree in chemistry, who decides to investigate traditional Chinese cures to go well, what were they thinking? And is there any validity to it? And what they found with the flying squirrel poop, is that these flying squirrels have this, I mean, they have a diet of berries and you know, bugs and things like that. But one of the things they do they live in pine forests.
Jeanine Adinaro 6:49
French fries, Cheetos, whatever the tourists drop.
David Jones 6:51
If they can get them. And part of their diet consists of products of the pine tree. Right and pine trees produce this sap, and in the sap, this rich resinous sap, has these things that are called terpenes. But you take these terpenes and you put them in this rodent's stomach with the gut bacteria that this rodent has. And what you get is complex chemistry going on fermentation, the bacteria digesting these things and what comes out the other end, it turns out where novel terpenes. Terpenes that had never been seen before. And some of the other products that they found in here were tested in terms of how they work as an anticoagulant. And they work very well as an anticoagulant. And so, so this is one of those things where there was a hypothesis, they tested it, and they got a conclusion and the conclusion was that this actually helped with pain. They got the right answer kind of for the wrong reasons. This is basically caveman science. I think it's a fascinating way to kind of look at this and, now I mean the FDA considers them unfit for human consumption.
Jeanine Adinaro 8:06
David Jones 8:07
And I remember like when we were in school we had a big jar of flying squirrel shit.
Jeanine Adinaro 8:13
I will not admit ever using flying squirel shit
David Jones 8:16
I do know someone who did use it
Jeanine Adinaro 8:18
And did she suddenly smile?
David Jones 8:19
She had intractable cramps and she went to Dr. Ma. He prescribed this sudden smile formula. She brewed it up, held her nose, drank it, and was like, no pun intended, that shit really worked. If you also look at some of the other things that you will find in TCM textbooks that are unfit for human consumption, bat shit is one of them.
Jeanine Adinaro 8:47
Got any other, any other Chinese herbs?
David Jones 8:50
I do. I have one other one. And it is silkworm poop.
Jeanine Adinaro 8:55
David Jones 8:56
Right. Now this one's easy to collect because...
Jeanine Adinaro 8:58
Right because you're farming the silkworms
David Jones 9:00
You're farming the silkworms for their silk and so their poo just collects in the bottom of whaever you're housing them in. And if you look up silkworm poop, it is, people build them into these cores that you then put in a pillow. And you're supposed to sleep on the silkworm shit pillow. And I'm not even sure what sort of advantages it's supposed to have. It's supposed to make you sleep better. Alright, so we've got a couple other things poop things to talk about things. One of them...
Jeanine Adinaro 9:15
David Jones 9:40
Is, and I imagine most people probably heard of this, there is a species of cat that lives in Indonesia called a civet.
Jeanine Adinaro 9:49
David Jones 9:49
And there is a type of coffee, usually runs about 100 bucks a pound, that is extracted from this civets poop - civit poop coffee. It is supposed to be...
Jeanine Adinaro 10:02
The cats like eat the coffee beans
David Jones 10:04
They eat the coffee beans, and then they poop out the seeds. And here's the, so here's the story. And I'm pretty sure that this is apocryphal as much as these stories are.
Jeanine Adinaro 10:14
But I just looked up a picture of the Civet cats, and they're cute, but they kind of look less like cats and more like ...
David Jones 10:25
Jeanine Adinaro 10:25
What happens when a ferret goes on a date with a raccoon.
David Jones 10:28
Yeah, yeah, they, they might be cute, but they're not like, house pet cute. Anyway. So here's the story, because this is, it asked the same question, right, which is, why did anyone think that was a good idea? And what happened was, is that the Dutch colonists came into Indonesia. And because they realized that that would be a good place to grow coffee, and coffee was a good way to make a lot of money, right. And they did the sort of colonizing thing where they were like, Hey, you work for us now. Oh, and by the way, if we find you picking the coffee for yourself, I imagine disastrous things would happen for them or their families.
Jeanine Adinaro 11:10
David Jones 11:12
So the civets come out at night, and they go into the coffee bushes, coffee trees, or whatever. And they're very specific about picking just the ripest berries. Right, because the coffee plant doesn't ripen all at once. Picking ripe berries is a very labor intensive thing to do and what the civets do is they pick the ripest berries, they eat the flesh, and then they digest the bean and they will digest and before they poop it out, there will be like a good solid handful of beans in that poop. Right? And so the farmers were like, Hey, here's that bean we're not supposed to have, but they can't, you know, get mad at us if we're picking it up off out of the poop. And so they clean it out.
Jeanine Adinaro 11:52
But it's inherently filthy.
David Jones 11:54
Inherently filthy. They would clean it up, they would roast it and they would drink it. And the story is that the digestive process and the fermentation that happened, combined with picking the ripest fruits led to a superior cup of coffee, and what's probably closer to the truth is, it's more myth, right? And now here's something... I bought some genuine, at least it says it's genuine.
Jeanine Adinaro 12:27
Oh, but it's really just Starbucks coffee
David Jones 12:29
Civet cat coffee. It's about 100 bucks pound, I got about 100 grams, it's enough to make about four servings. So I'm going to make some
Jeanine Adinaro 12:36
David Jones 12:37
And we'll give it a little taste test, and see what we think. And I'll tell you what, I will not prejudiced your taste by telling you what other tasters are saying, have said about it. And we'll just see what you think, in terms of how it tastes. And I guess we could go do that now and then come back and record.
Jeanine Adinaro 12:56
I just think it's remarkable what you can buy on the internet.
David Jones 13:01
They, well we'll get to that in a second. Well, I'll tell you what, let's go make a cup of coffee. And we'll, we'll talk about
Jeanine Adinaro 13:07
All right, let's do it.
David Jones 13:10
Hey, Jeanine, this might be a good time to talk about our sponsor.
Jeanine Adinaro 13:13
Whaaait? We have a sponsor?
David Jones 13:16
Well, I mean, don't you think it's time we should come clean all the nice people listening?
Jeanine Adinaro 13:21
Probably. Yeah. So Hear Phyto is like an extra credit project for us. Because our day jobs are running a small herb company you might know as Herbalogic.
David Jones 13:32
This is just a tricky way to sell stuff, right?
Jeanine Adinaro 13:35
No. As much as we like to sell stuff, which is a lot. We also want to clear up some myths and misconceptions about herbs, which is the main goal of this project. But we figured it wouldn't hurt to plug the website. So you want to do the plug.
David Jones 13:51
Yeah, yeah, here it is. So if you're interested in seeing what we do for our day jobs, go to herbalogic.com, that's H-E-R-B-A-L-O-G-I-C.com and call to action.
Jeanine Adinaro 14:02
David Jones 14:02
Yeah, you're supposed to end a commercial with a pithy call to action.
Jeanine Adinaro 14:05
You mean like, hey, buy our stuff?
David Jones 14:08
Well, I mean, sure. That's a little on the nose. But we can go with that. Oh, yeah. And if you enter in this discount code, you get 10% off. Cool. Okay, let's make some coffee.
Okay, we're back. And this coffee is from the Ksu Pom Humbong cooperative through forging and zero contact with the animals. That's going to come up a little bit later as a really important thing. So what I've done is made a cup of coffee with an AeroPress, just a standard little AeroPress.
Jeanine Adinaro 14:59
I'm gonna, I'm gonna jump in here before you go down the technical rabbit hole of how you made the coffee? I like coffee. I like coffee a lot. Most people who know me know that I would be, you know, kind of on the fence about the morality of selling your children for coffee.
David Jones 15:17
Jeanine Adinaro 15:19
I'm not, I'm not going to fall on theissue one way or another. But I get up in the morning and my coffee comes from a Keurig pod. And I don't complain about it. Dave takes the whole coffee making to a whole other level. There's... he pulled out the balance scale to weigh the coffee beans for this science project.
David Jones 15:40
I feel like if you don't weigh your coffee, you're not really making coffee.
Jeanine Adinaro 15:42
But, but I say that he didn't pull it out. The scale was just on the counter already.
David Jones 15:47
It has to live on the counter.
Jeanine Adinaro 15:49
It lives on the counter because it gets us so much.
David Jones 15:51
Jeanine Adinaro 15:52
So okay, tell the coffee loving people out there what you have made lovingly.
David Jones 15:59
So if you really do like coffee,
Jeanine Adinaro 16:02
Because apparently I don't. Apparently I'm just like a casual user.
David Jones 16:06
I used an AeroPress on a sort of a medium grind but a little on the fine side. And water at about 200 degrees with a minute and a half steep time and then a press and then probably about equal parts water on an AeroPress to dilute it out. And so that's what we're having right now. I also....
That's the big cup. I get two cups.
We have two cups because the other cup is half of an espresso shot, that I pulled with 15 and a half grams of this grounded in espresso setting. So let's taste the coffee.
Jeanine Adinaro 16:48
Well wait. So why are we tasting the AeroPress one first?
David Jones 16:52
Oh, because I think it'll be less. I think the, the flavors from the espresso might be a little stronger. And I think we'd go from weak to strong.
Jeanine Adinaro 17:02
Okay, I'll buy that.
David Jones 17:03
So, so the...
Jeanine Adinaro 17:06
Okay, I just fogged up my glasses.
David Jones 17:08
The aroma on the coffee's pretty nice.
Jeanine Adinaro 17:11
He warmed the cups. I saw him warm the cups before he...
David Jones 17:14
Now this is, it's supposed to not be very acidic is one of its, it's supposed to be full body and low acid.
Jeanine Adinaro 17:24
It's very low acidity. Yeah.
David Jones 17:28
I mean, we're just both just drinking it black. This is, I mean, it's all right.
Jeanine Adinaro 17:31
No, I would say this is very low acidity. It's very hot. I can't have a big sip of it. Because I burn my tongue and lips too easily.
David Jones 17:40
It's a it was a light roast. I generally, I tend to like darker roast.
Jeanine Adinaro 17:46
I mean, it's it's a good, it is a good cup of coffee.
David Jones 17:49
You think so?
Jeanine Adinaro 17:49
Now, I'm not convinced that there's anything to warrant being $100 a pound except for the really, really cute cat coffee bean logo on the package. Super cute.
David Jones 18:06
I'm going to taste the espresso.
Jeanine Adinaro 18:10
Well, that espresso put some hair on your chest. That's strong.
David Jones 18:16
That's why we went in that direction.
Jeanine Adinaro 18:17
I see that now.
David Jones 18:19
It's, now if I went and just made a regular espresso with some standard sort of Ethiopian beans, like a, the stuff that I like the make every morning. I think it would compare very favorably to this.
Jeanine Adinaro 18:35
Like they're kind of on the same level.
David Jones 18:37
Well, I think I like the other stuff better. Like this, it's okay.
Jeanine Adinaro 18:43
Is it a $100 a pound good? How much did you pay for the Ethiopian roast?
David Jones 18:48
$15 a pound?
Jeanine Adinaro 18:50
Yeah, there's a difference there.
David Jones 18:52
It's not seven times better.
Jeanine Adinaro 18:53
It's got easily, though 27 times the story.
David Jones 18:59
And if that's what you're drinking in the story, that's fine. But it's I don't know. It's all right. Now here's, here's why the sustainable thing is important because, because very much like anything where someone goes, Hey, I could probably make a lot of money on that. Then ...
Jeanine Adinaro 19:16
It gets corrupted in a hurry.
David Jones 19:18
It gets corrupted in a hurry. And what happens is they start putting these things in cages.
Jeanine Adinaro 19:22
David Jones 19:23
The civets, they start putting them in cages. And then they start force feeding them coffee beans.
Jeanine Adinaro 19:29
Oh, so now the civets aren't picking out the ripe ones.
David Jones 19:31
So they're not picking up the ripe ones. And their digestion....
Jeanine Adinaro 19:34
And they're sad.
David Jones 19:35
....is going to be off. And so
Jeanine Adinaro 19:37
Because they're sad.
David Jones 19:38
I would imagine they're quite sad. So you know, there's the whole like, why would you contribute to that when to get relatively Okay, coffee and pay $100 a pound for it?
Jeanine Adinaro 19:50
Is the non-sustainably sourced coffee a hundred dollars a pound?
David Jones 19:53
Yeah, but I you know, when I was looking for this, it's all over the place. Like you can find it for I read an article it said if you're not paying $800 a pound you're not getting real stuff.
Jeanine Adinaro 20:03
Uh huh. And was it written by the people who are charging $800 a pound?
David Jones 20:08
Probably, ya. Yeah, coffee, so I don't know. I mean, it's good. It's fine. It's just fine.
Jeanine Adinaro 20:14
I mean, no, I think it's better than fine. Right. Like, I think what comes out of my Kuerig is fine.
David Jones 20:19
Jeanine Adinaro 20:21
David Jones 20:22
Okay. Have you ever caught up on one of those pods? Cut open one of those pods and see what's in it.
Jeanine Adinaro 20:28
David Jones 20:29
Well, I imagine it's just freeze dried coffee.
Jeanine Adinaro 20:31
Yeah, I'm sure it is. It's just coffee. It's just ground coffee. Yeah.
David Jones 20:34
Somebody? Somebody figured out a way to sell Folgers, a cup at a time?
Jeanine Adinaro 20:42
I don't, I'm not awake enough in the mornings to do anything more than push a button. hange a pod. Mornings are hard for me.
David Jones 20:51
I love, I have a, it takes eight minutes for me to make my espresso in the morning.
Jeanine Adinaro 20:58
See, like I'm on to my third cup of coffee in eight minutes.
David Jones 21:01
And it's a meditation. Right? Like I start at one end of the kitchen, grab the spoon. Grab the milk, grab the coffee, move to this section. Weight the beans, grind the beans, pack the beans.
Jeanine Adinaro 21:11
Weight the beans.... I run into parents at school drop off. And the moms will kind of have that look that sort of tired, haggard look. And I will say "Oh, are you doing okay?" And they'll be like, "I haven't had any coffee yet this morning." And I'm like, "How did you get here?" I don't, I don't think I start the car without a cup of coffee first.
David Jones 21:34
So here's to addiction.
Jeanine Adinaro 21:36
David Jones 21:37
I mean, I participate in it every morning.
Jeanine Adinaro 21:40
Hey, for whatever it's worth, I listened to a very long BBC podcast about coffee. And they specifically discussed addiction to coffee. And apparently, from a clinical standpoint, you cannot be addicted to coffee. Because in order to be addicted to something like cocaine, or heroin, or.... it has to affect the pleasure center in the brain. And coffee doesn't do that. So you can certainly have some physiological responses to caffeine dependency, but those pass really quickly. Right? It's just not an addictive substance the way that
David Jones 22:24
Have you ever have caffeine, caffeine withdrawal headache?
Jeanine Adinaro 22:26
Of course. Yeah.
David Jones 22:27
Alright. So I decided stupidly to go off coffee couple years ago. And I was like, I hear I heard about this headache. And I heard it was really bad. But it's like, whatever, you know, had headaches before. And three days into my caffeine abstinence. I was like, I feel fine. I feel good. I don't need your demon beans. And then this headache started creeping in. And I was like, oh, here's the headache of talking about right. But it'll go away. And like, you'll go like, what?
Jeanine Adinaro 22:54
Three days? I get the headache, like two o'clock in the afternoon. I'm like, why do I feel so shitty?
David Jones 23:01
Mine was a couple of days. And and then it started creeping in. And then like, three days later, when I still had this headache, I was like, I think I might have a brain tumor. Like, seriously, I think I have a brain tumor.
Jeanine Adinaro 23:13
Take me to the hospital
David Jones 23:14
And I was like, You know what? This whole coffee abstinence thing was stupid. And right now having a cup of coffee is going to be diagnostic. I'm gonna have a cup of coffee. So I made a cup of coffee. And like 20 minutes later,
Jeanine Adinaro 23:26
The tumor was gone!
David Jones 23:27
The tumor was gone. And that's when I went, "Coffee, I love you so much. I will never forsake you again!"
Jeanine Adinaro 23:36
I don't know. It's like, what did we? Did we decide this was basically like an Americano?
David Jones 23:40
Well, it's AeroPress is sort of a concentrated coffee. And typically, you dilute it a little bit with some water, so kind of, but not really.
Jeanine Adinaro 23:49
Whatever. The stuff I'm drinking out of the bigger cup, that's isn't the espresso
David Jones 23:52
Not the espresso
Jeanine Adinaro 23:53
As it's cooled down now.
David Jones 23:55
You starting to get a little bit more flavor out of it?
Jeanine Adinaro 23:56
It's like, oh, that's really good. Yeah, cuz you know, when the coffee's super hot, it's just like, oh, want to drink it. Don't want to burn my tongue. Oh, but, but then as it cools down, it's like, I can actually appreciate what this tastes like. And it actually is really good. Still, probably not seven times better than the Ethiopian.
David Jones 24:13
No. That cup of coffee I made for you the other day, where you were like, "Oh my god, this is good."
Jeanine Adinaro 24:18
I think it might just be because the Keurig pods are the equivalent of eating hotdogs out of the garbage can. I wonder if there's any medicinal properties to raccoon poop?
Like, I can totally see it. Like, raccoons eat everything and never get sick. I wonder if eating their poop will fortify your digestive system
David Jones 24:40
Well Jeanine, then let me ask you this question. If it's a reasonable question to ask if there are medicinal qualities to raccoon poop. Is it a reasonable question to ask if there are medicinal qualities to human poop?
Jeanine Adinaro 24:52
Oh, it is and what a very nice transition you just set me up for. Thank you. Yes, because that is our final topic on poop as medicine- is human fecal transplants.
David Jones 25:09
Jeanine Adinaro 25:10
Take a moment. Let's dissect that, you know, fecal - poop. Transplant- take from one person.
David Jones 25:18
So I need poop from somebody else.
Jeanine Adinaro 25:20
And then you're putting, yes, so you have a donor and a recipient. So the first question you might ask is, why?
David Jones 25:32
Jeanine Adinaro 25:33
Why indeed? It turns out that the human gut, and by gut I'm just going to generically lump in your entire digestive system, has a bunch of micro organisms in it that are supposed to be there that are helpful.
David Jones 25:53
Can I just, real quick? Because I think this is one of those things that's fascinating...
Jeanine Adinaro 26:00
David Jones 26:02
From a technical standpoint, so your digestive system goes from your mouth to your anus.
Jeanine Adinaro 26:05
Yep. Just a big tube.
Yep,it sure is.
David Jones 26:06
It's a big tube that goes from your mouth to your anus, and technically, the inside of that tube is outside of your body. Think about it for a sec.
Jeanine Adinaro 26:19
Okay, you've had too much of the cat poop coffee.
David Jones 26:21
All right. So keep going.
Jeanine Adinaro 26:21
So it turns out that in the human digestive system, and I'm going to assume this is true for animals but I haven't read anything abou it so we're just going to stick to humans. But it turns out, there's a whole bunch of micro organisms that are there, that humans have co-evolved with, to do good things for the digestive process. So people usually think of the good bacteria that's in your gut. Right, and that's why people eat yogurt, and sauerkraut, and kombucha, pickles because the lactobacillus and other related bacteria that are the quote unquote, good bacteria.
David Jones 27:03
I think a basilicas is what you find in the Vatican.
Jeanine Adinaro 27:07
Oh, is that not what it's called?
David Jones 27:08
I think it's bacillus.
Jeanine Adinaro 27:12
David Jones 27:13
Yeah. Which also completely, I have had too much coffee. This brings me to a...
Jeanine Adinaro 27:17
...brilliant, brilliant product idea. We will make yogurt in the Vatican. The Pope will bless it
David Jones 27:24
And it'll be....Basilicas Bacillus?
Jeanine Adinaro 27:27
Basilicas Bacillus! Hey, you know what if Trappist monks can make pound cake or fruitcake at Christmas, tappist monks, trappist .... I don't know what they're called
David Jones 27:38
Jeanine Adinaro 27:38
Trappist monks, oh I did have it right.
David Jones 27:40
So just as an aside from talking about the Vatican, you know how many Pope's there are in the Vatican. How many? Well if its measured in square kilometers - two.
Jeanine Adinaro 27:50
I don't get it.
David Jones 27:51
Two popes per square kilometer because the Vatican is only like half a square kilometer
I gues, I guess the coffee, the coffee tastes okay, but it's terribly, I don't know, it's so intoxicating. Oh, maybe that's it. Maybe the hundred dollars is because it has the punchy effect. It has a punchy effect and people get addicted to the punchy effect. Now I'm only going to be buying Kopi Luwak
Jeanine Adinaro 28:02
Jeanine Adinaro 28:22
David Jones 28:24
Like I need more coffee.
Jeanine Adinaro 28:26
Okay, so anyway, you have this good bacteria in your gut. And as one of our professors at acupuncture school, I don't know if you remember Dr. Mandyum. I don't know if you could forget Dr. Mandyum
David Jones 28:40
Jeanine Adinaro 28:41
As he put it one day, on the topic of antibiotics. You and your gut bacteria have been good friends for a long time. And now you've just gone and killed half of them by taking antibiotics.
David Jones 28:55
Sometimes you have to.
Jeanine Adinaro 28:56
Sometimes you have to, right, but it's a common problem. People take antibiotics and then they kill off the good bacteria in their gut. And then bad things happen. Right? I think a lot of people are familiar with, a lot of women are familiar with getting vaginal yeast infections after antibiotic use, and it's because the good bacteria that keeps the fungus in check gets killed off and then the you get fungal overgrowth.
But another condition that comes up from antibiotic treatment is an overgrowth of bacteria, which, and it's not a what we would call like a normally occurring bacteria. It's one that some people have it and some people don't. But
David Jones 29:45
Like artistic ability? Perfect pitch.
Jeanine Adinaro 29:49
I don't know. It's one of those things where so there's a bacteria called Clostridium difficile. And we, Dave and I spent like 15 minutes trying to figure out how to pronounce that correctly. And we found 15 different audio clips on YouTube all saying it differently. So I'm just going with difficile. I would point out to people that if you're familiar if you speak Spanish,
difícil, which means difficult or hard. It's it's basically the same word, this spelling's a little bit different. But anyway, so you get an overgrowth of Clostridium difficile , which causes a form of colitis because the bacteria produces toxins that damage the intestinal cells.
David Jones 30:43
Ohhh maybe it's just the coffee but hold on. So you got this thing we're going to call it c. diff
Jeanine Adinaro 30:47
Yeah, because that's what doctors call it because otherwise we would have to come to an agreement about how to pronounce claustridium difficile.
David Jones 30:56
C diff, does it normally live in your gut?
Jeanine Adinaro 30:59
Well, it's not a quote-unquote normal gut bacteria but plenty of people have it and never have any problems
David Jones 31:05
Allright, but if you do have problems it causes colitis. And colitis, remind me about colitis, again.
Jeanine Adinaro 31:11
It's very, very frequent, uncomfortable trips to the bathroom to have explosive diarrhea.
David Jones 31:20
All right, colitis
Jeanine Adinaro 31:21
David Jones 31:22
You do not want it.
Jeanine Adinaro 31:23
No, you do not want it. And especially in immune compromised people, a C diff. infection can kill you. You get completely dehydrated and ....
David Jones 31:37
From all the pooping?
Jeanine Adinaro 31:38
Yes. Everything's just going through you, right? Because you're tube is now just like the slide at the waterpark. Everything's just going.
David Jones 31:46
Oh, blurg. All right.
Jeanine Adinaro 31:49
And so then you get this downward spiral. You stop eating, you stop drinking.
David Jones 31:54
Okay, so the c. diff. causes the colitis, the colitis causes explosive diarrhea and dehydration and in immune compromised people up to and including death. These all sound like bad things. So let me ask you like, so wouldn't you ordinarily just use antibiotics to kill off this bacteria?
Jeanine Adinaro 32:14
Isn't that funny, you then use more antibiotics, which is what kind of got you into this trouble to begin with. But that is the standard of treatment is to first use antibiotics. But they are super nasty antibiotics. This is not like a z-pack that you just take a few days. These are like IV antibiotics.
David Jones 32:32
This is like vancomycin.
Jeanine Adinaro 32:34
Yeah, that comes with... and vancomycin wasn't even on the list. The list was I looked at it, it was unpronounceable, it's antibiotics you would never heard of because they would be given to you with an IV in a hospital because they also need to monitor you for kidney failure.
David Jones 32:50
Is c. diff. usually caught in hospitals? Is it like a hospital related infection?
Jeanine Adinaro 33:00
It can be. I mean, just because....
David Jones 33:03
I think the word for that is nosocomial?
Jeanine Adinaro 33:06
David Jones 33:07
Jeanine Adinaro 33:08
I don't know.
David Jones 33:08
Jeanine Adinaro 33:09
There is a word for coming out of the hospital sicker than you went in.
David Jones 33:13
Alright, so you're in the hospital, you got the c. diff.
Jeanine Adinaro 33:15
Or you just to get it from? I don't know, bad hygiene at the Mexican restaurant. I don't know.
David Jones 33:21
Alright, so now enter our hero poop. Other people's poop.
Jeanine Adinaro 33:25
So okay, so the first treatment you get is antibiotics.
That's only about, that's only effective in about 70% of the cases.
It does work. But for 30% of the population it doesn't work.
David Jones 33:40
If you're one of the 70% you're happy.
Jeanine Adinaro 33:42
And, let's review. The antibiotics are really hard on your other internal organs. Right. And if you are immunocompromised because you've been, say, getting chemotherapy, your other organs are already getting hammered from dealing with that. And now you're throwing these nasty antibiotics, which maybe work, but maybe not.
David Jones 34:01
So it does work?
All right. So first course is antibiotics, 70% cure rate.
Jeanine Adinaro 34:07
Right. If that doesn't work, if you have a very, what's the word for, progressive medical team? They might recommend to you, it's time to get a poop transplant. And poop transplants in a hospital setting.
David Jones 34:28
How do you get on the donor list for this? Is there a donor list poop transplants?
Jeanine Adinaro 34:32
Let's talk about how you get to be the recipient of the poop first. So in a hospital setting, there's two methods to get the poop. The first method, which is kind of like the original method is you get by colonoscopy. And so you go under general anesthesia, and they shove a tube up your butt and they get to the end of your colon and then as they leave the colon they sprinkle the poop all over the place. And the idea is that your donor has enough healthy bacteria that will get the c. diff. under control.
David Jones 35:09
The poop fairy?
Jeanine Adinaro 35:10
The poop fairy, yes. The poop fairy get the C diff under control. Right.
David Jones 35:14
Okay, so we call it colon fairy man.
Jeanine Adinaro 35:19
The um, the new version, which is safer because it doesn't involve anesthesia is there's a company that makes encapsulated freeze dried poop. So then you just swallow it. And it's in special capsules. And the capsules make it all the way through your stomach and small intestine before it gets to your large intestine. And then they find the capsules finally dissolve. And then the freeze dried poop gets spread out that way. And then you have the good bacteria being introduced to the recipient that way.
You're thinking about it?
David Jones 35:58
Well, no, because here's the thing is, that sounds really gross. Like here, eat someone else's poop. We've encapsulated it for you....
Jeanine Adinaro 36:04
But we've encapsulated it for you. You just swallow it. Have a glass of orange juice, right?
David Jones 36:07
That's but if I'm like, if they were like, well, you're, you know, on the death's door, do you want to eat poop? I mean, I don't even need the capsules, man.
Jeanine Adinaro 36:15
Here's the thing. The success rate for poop transplants, for c. diff. infection is about 95%. So it's way higher than the antibiotics.
David Jones 36:25
Why don't they use it as a first?
Jeanine Adinaro 36:27
I don't know. That's an excellent question. I do not have a good answer for that.
David Jones 36:32
Hmm, I would think that that would be a relatively low cost option, is it cheap?
Jeanine Adinaro 36:37
It is not a cheap option.
David Jones 36:39
Why is that not cheap?
Jeanine Adinaro 36:39
Okay, well, so there's a couple reasons why it's not cheap. First off, there's a company that specializes in getting donor poop, and freeze drying it and processing it and encapsulating it and getting it already. And the company that does that very rigorously screens, its donors. And I looked at the list of what they screened for they do blood tests, and they do fecal cultures, because there's a whole lot of stuff that can be lurking around in a seemingly healthy person that you do not want introduced to somebody else, especially not an immune compromised person who's dealing with a c. diff. infection, right? So you've got like your obvious ones, right? They do the blood test to make sure you don't have hepatitis, Hepatitis B, hepatitis C, right, because those can be totally asymptomatic
David Jones 37:31
Jeanine Adinaro 37:33
They test for parasites. They also test for viruses, because there's a whole host of viruses like rotavirus, which you can have hanging out in your gut being totally asymptomatic, not causing the donor, potential donor, any problems. But again, if you introduce it to a person whose immune system is already having problems, you really, you know, probably going to kill them that much faster. Right? So they go through this very rigorous screening, they screen for all these microorganisms, all these parasites, only about 3% of their donor applicants make it through the donor process. So you're screening a lot of people just to get the donor poop.
David Jones 38:20
So it's harder to be a poop donor than to get into Harvard?
Jeanine Adinaro 38:26
I think, I don't know. I don't know what their... but you're not it's not like you're just you know, donating blood.
David Jones 38:31
We'd like to see your SAT scores and have a fecal sample. Welcome to Harvard.
Jeanine Adinaro 38:36
Okay. So at the moment, the FDA only has designated poop transplants to be a treatment for c. diff. infection.
David Jones 38:45
Are there off label uses for poop translpants?
Jeanine Adinaro 38:48
So the FDA and all the medical people also say if you're doing this for anything else, you better be in a study. Because it is being studied. And there's a whole bunch of other conditions like ulcerative colitis, right. So ulcerative colitis is not really well understood, but it's very debilitating. And there is some anecdotal evidence to suggest that poop transplants can be effective. Oh, wait, I want to go back and say something really important. Okay, I forgot about this. So because I find this really interesting. So they screen the poop donors for all sorts of, to make sure you don't have a bunch of bad stuff. Make sure you're not carrying around a viruses or worms or anything like that.
David Jones 39:31
Which most of us are.
Jeanine Adinaro 39:32
David Jones 39:33
Yeah. 97% If only 3% make it through. We're all wormed and virused up.
Jeanine Adinaro 39:38
To be fair, like they won't even take you, if you come in, like with a cold, they won't take your poop. Right. So I mean, there's a lot of reasons you can get kicked out.
David Jones 39:49
How rejected would you have to feel if you're like, I'm here to give you my poop. Nah- we don't want it. You don't even want my poop? Nobody wants you or your poop
Jeanine Adinaro 40:00
That's pretty bad. That probably should be a psychological screening.
David Jones 40:04
I got a rock and no one wants my poop.
Jeanine Adinaro 40:07
The other thing is, they're not screening for anything. Like the presence of, right. They're not saying, right, that because that was originally when I was like, "Oh, I bet the list of what they're looking for. It looks like a container of yogurt." Right?
David Jones 40:23
I feel like you're building up to a statistics question.
Jeanine Adinaro 40:27
I mean, I think they're operating under the assumption that if you appear healthy, you seem to be healthy, they can't find any bad stuff....what's left must be good.
David Jones 40:43
Jeanine Adinaro 40:45
There may be other conditions that are very effectively brought under control with poop transplants. But, you can't get them in a hospital because ....Okay, so but this leads... so I fell down the internet black hole. And there is no shortage of websites and instructional videos for DIY poop transplants.
David Jones 41:12
Oh, for the love. Really?
Jeanine Adinaro 41:14
Yeah. But I mean, I mean, think about it. Like if you have a condition that is so debilitating. It's like destroyed your life. You can't work. You can't leave. You can't be more than 10 feet from the bathroom at any time. The doctors have thrown up their hands and said, "We got nothing. There's nothing we can do for you."
David Jones 41:37
And someone told you to eat shit
Jeanine Adinaro 41:38
And somebody said, "hey, my next door neighbor's cousin's hairdresser got a poop transplant and it cured her ulcerative colitis," you might feel desperate enough to do this. Right? I mean, I get it, I get it, why people try this. Now, all this said, I'm going to just out, I'm just going to say, I do not think that a DIY poop transplant is a good idea. And maybe I would feel differently if I did have a debilitating condition like this. But the here's the issue. So you again, get two choices ahead to get the bacteria in. One is through the back door. So you can give yourself....
David Jones 42:19
Oh God, is there a DIY backdoor version?
Jeanine Adinaro 42:22
Oh, yeah. It's an enema with a turkey baster basically. Right?
David Jones 42:26
God people are endlessly creative,
Jeanine Adinaro 42:28
David Jones 42:29
Especially with butt holes.
Jeanine Adinaro 42:30
Yeah. So I'm gonna say that's the safer option. If you're going to do a DIY poop transplant. That's the route you should take.
David Jones 42:41
Alright, so Jeanine is recommending the turkey baster option.
Jeanine Adinaro 42:44
Right. So the other option is and that involves, like I looked at it involves saline and mix it up anyway. The other option is to freeze and encapsulate poop. Do not do this, because the capsules that you're going to get Amazon, are capsules that are like gelatin capsules that are designed to dissolve in your stomach. You do not want the bacteria and whatever else from somebody else's butt in your stomach. It's just that is, that is right back to shit will make you sick. Like there's a reason why that sign is up in the restaurant. That says, "employees must wash hands"
David Jones 43:23
You're essentially you would be involving yourself in a deconstructed Human Centipede.
Jeanine Adinaro 43:28
Ugggh, oooh, that's, yeah, that's bad. That is, to be particularly fair to fecal transplants, this is like cutting edge medicine.
David Jones 43:37
Isn't that crazy? I mean, it's fantastic. Because it's solving a problem
Jeanine Adinaro 43:47
That we created.
David Jones 43:49
Right. But it solves a problem in a very simple kind of way. Now I'm sure that the people who are doing the science behind are like "simple? No, this is not simple"
Jeanine Adinaro 44:00
We just ran a panel of 150 tests on this poop
David Jones 44:04
But the fact that we're taking healthy bacteria that we've co-evolved with, and using them to solve problems that we can't solve out of a out of a pharmaceutical company, right, is amazing to me. And I wonder like, what else can you use by harnessing
Jeanine Adinaro 44:26
Smear the yogurt on yourself? I should try that on my dry elbows.
David Jones 44:30
I read somewhere once that the best probiotic you can get is just yogurt. Yogurt. Yeah. Like all of the other probiotics that you can that you can buy, like essentially yogurt is, probably the best one.
Jeanine Adinaro 44:42
I remember reading a study where they had surgeons, they had like the control group scrubbing up. And then they had another group of surgeons scrubbing up and then dipping their hands and yogurt.
David Jones 44:56
Mm hmm. And then gloving up from there?
Jeanine Adinaro 44:59
I assume they wiped the yogurt off because otherwise the gloves would fall off. But the point is, is that they wash their hands then smeared the good bacteria that yogurt has in it has it all over themselves. And that group of surgeons had a markedly less post surgical infection rate and blah, blah, blah,
David Jones 45:16
Jeanine Adinaro 45:17
Yeah. Yeah. I think it goes back to this whole idea that there are these good bacteria that keep the bad bacteria in check. But anyway, that's that's, uh, that's poop transplants. You want to know more about the transplants do not Google Do It Yourself poop transplants.
Jeanine Adinaro 45:34
No good will come out of those videos.
David Jones 45:36
I can promise you 100% that I will not put that search term in.
Jeanine Adinaro 45:41
You're going to totally do it,aren't you?
David Jones 45:42
No, no, I don't need that in my life. If I need poop transplant someday, God forbid. I hope I don't. But I think I'll save it until then. All right, you got any, You got anything else? Poop related to tell the folks?
Jeanine Adinaro 45:58
I do not wait think we have beaten the shit out of the poop topic.
David Jones 46:05
Jeanine Adinaro 46:05
I had to do it.
David Jones 46:09
All right. Rim shot. All right. Well, then I guess that's a wrap.
Jeanine Adinaro 46:12
Rim shot, really?
David Jones 46:15
Jeanine Adinaro 46:19
Do you want to do ... Do you want to.... Do you want to close with, recipes?
David Jones 46:24
Um sure, we can close recipes for a little segment I like to call what you've been cooking lately.
Jeanine Adinaro 46:30
What you've been cooking. All right. I'm gonna just set this up. Dave and I both - decent cooks. I would actually argue Dave's a better cook than I am. Because he's got some professional experience in the restaurant business.
David Jones 46:44
But anyway, we both like to cook
Jeanine Adinaro 46:46
We both like to cook. We both like interesting foods. We like to try new stuff.
David Jones 46:50
And both, neither of our spouses can cook
Jeanine Adinaro 46:52
Oh, neither of our spouses could cook to save themselves.
David Jones 46:56
I don't know. Jenny might be able to save her.
Jeanine Adinaro 47:00
Um, no, no my husband will like end up grazing. Just nothing cooking. Like he'll cut up a cucumber.
David Jones 47:10
Jenny will cook. She cooks her breakfast. And her lunch.
Jeanine Adinaro 47:15
Okay, what does cook mean?
David Jones 47:17
Well, she makes like an egg scramble for breakfast and she takes it to school, you know and heats it up while she's working and, and lunch can be a variety of things. But to be fair, most of the time, it's a like a grass fed burger patty, and a couple vegetables.
Jeanine Adinaro 47:35
Is it pre-cooked?
David Jones 47:36
No, no, no, she does all the cooking. She let she gets that much done. Oh, you know what? She is a capable. She's capable enough to feed herself. But she's not super interested in it. And because I'm more interested in it. There's I tell you what, you so you remember that book? I think it's, I think the author's name is McGee. And it's I think it's called like on cooking. And it's this tome. ,
Jeanine Adinaro 48:00
Yeah, we got it. We got a copy at my house. And it is like a reference encyclopedia on the history of different food and culinary techniques.
David Jones 48:07
Right. And she made the mistake of getting me this for Christmas once. And because we were at my parents' and because there's no internet at my parents', I mean, there is with functionally there isn't. Um, I was sitting there with this book going. "Oh my god. Wait a minute. You guys have to hear this about Virginia ham"
Jeanine Adinaro 48:25
The history of bechemel sauce. .
David Jones 48:27
Yeah, no, this is fascinating. Put the book down, Dave. No,you guys. This is interesting stuff. You got to hear this. Anyway. So that's that's sort of where I am cooking. I think that's kind of where you are. And so, so yes, you were saying
Jeanine Adinaro 48:43
so, I do the cooking in my house. You do the cooking in your house. I thought it would be fun to have a little segment what you've been cooking lately. So my first item that I cooked recently, is a little bit embarrassing. I made over the weekend tater-tot casserole.
David Jones 49:03
I don't even know what that is.
Jeanine Adinaro 49:05
It's totally like Midwest comfort food.
David Jones 49:11
You know, I used to live in the Midwest, in Illinois, Northern Illinois. I do not know this food.
Jeanine Adinaro 49:17
Well, in the grand tradition of Midwest recipes.
David Jones 49:21
Jeanine Adinaro 49:21
It begins with a can of condensed cream of mushroom soup.
David Jones 49:27
This sounds like it has Paula Deen's fingerprints on it.
Jeanine Adinaro 49:30
Paula Deen did not invent it. She probably perfected it though.
David Jones 49:33
Okay, keep going.
Jeanine Adinaro 49:34
So you saute your onions and garlic. I'm actually probably have already like surpassed the standard recipe by using actual garlic instead of like garlic powder. Brown your ground beef, drain the fat. And then the traditional recipe. Open the can, dump it in and stir it up.
David Jones 49:54
In a slow cooker, probably?
Jeanine Adinaro 49:56
No, it's just in a fry pan. Then you dump it into casserole dish. Then you carefully place a layer of tater tots. I like to arrange mine and a concentric circle pattern
David Jones 50:08
Wait, the tater tops are just on the top?
Jeanine Adinaro 50:09
Yeah, they're frozen. So this is like standard freezer section at the grocery store tater tots. And you put a layer of shredded cheese, shredded cheddar. I think I used like the four cheese Mexican blend. To give it a little. Fiesta. Okay, and then you stick it in the oven for half an hour. And all the meat stuffs already all cooked. And then when you put in the oven, that cheese gets all melty and the tater tots get all crispy.
David Jones 50:40
Now I can only imagine that your boys just dug into this.
Jeanine Adinaro 50:43
One of them did. The other one doesn't eat anything.
But yes, it is it is a traditional child favorite. But here's the thing. I decided, in my brain, condensed cream of mushroom soup is not healthy. I have to take the condensed soup out of this equation. So I cooked my onions and garlic, put in my ground beef, drained the fat then I cut up a bunch of baby Bella mushrooms, sauteed up those and then added about, I don't know a cup or two of sour cream.
David Jones 51:13
So in the grand scheme of things, how much healthier do you think your version was over using the condensed soup?
Jeanine Adinaro 51:18
At the time, it seemed brilliant. I'm gonna just take out the cream of mushroom soup because that's chemically bad and wrong. And put the daisy sour cream in there. And just never you mind but I then covered this with a layer of the most processed potato product known to mankind. So I do recognize this a bit like being concerned about whether or not my heroine has been organically grown. But it was delicious. And we will not be making that again for at least a year.
David Jones 51:50
All right. So tater tot casserole with homemade mushroom cream sauce. Sour cream sauce. Okay. Alright. Sounds good. I probably would.... But like good in a guilty way?
Jeanine Adinaro 52:05
Oh it's totally like in a, in a comfort food guilt kind of way for sure. Yeah. What do you got?
David Jones 52:13
So I haven't really been doing anything in the kitchen super interesting lately. Um, one thing. This is something that I made last night that is sort of a, sort of a household go to favorite. My wife, whenever I say, "Hey, what do you want for dinner this week?" I get the same answer all the time. I really want something healthy.
Jeanine Adinaro 52:36
At least you get an answer. I just get "whatever you're making is fine." And then I'll make something and like, but I don't like brussels sprouts.
David Jones 52:44
Anyway, so so I get the same answer, which is I don't know something healthy. And I know for her that means like, some sort of lean protein and a couple of vegetables. Whatever.
Jeanine Adinaro 52:55
So not tater tot casserole?
David Jones 52:57
Not tator tot carsserole.
Jeanine Adinaro 52:58
I bet she'd eat it if you made it.
David Jones 52:59
Probably. Um, she really likes sweet potatoes. Like if we're out and there's a choice of fries. She will get sweet potato fries. This does not compute to me. I do not like sweet potatoes. But there, this is a way that I cook sweet potatoes that I find palatable. So I just do a couple sweet potatoes that have like a medium dice. And then sautee 'em in a little olive oil. Right? toss him every couple minutes. You want to get them cooked all the way through with, you not looking for crispy on the outside so much just cooked through. And then what I do is I take a probably a couple tablespoons of honey at one chipotle from a can of chipotle in adobo sauce. A little bit of adobo, grind that up with a stick blender and then just use that as a glaze and the like when they're done. Just throw that on there and toss them around until it coats. And that smoky, spicy, sweet with a sweet potato. Like you can barely like you can barely stop eating them. It's really, really delicious.
Jeanine Adinaro 54:03
That sounds good.
David Jones 54:04
I know it's it's pretty solid. We didn't have any chipotles last night, so I made a Saracha honey sauce.
Jeanine Adinaro 54:09
Did that work?
David Jones 54:10
Yeah, I thought it was pretty good. I liked the smokiness of the Chipotle a better with the sweet potatoes. But yeah, that's that's something that, that's sort of our go to with sweet potatoes. That's the way I'll eat them. It's the way she'll eat them. I don't you know the idea of baking them and then what do you even do with them? maple syrup and marshmallow fluff.
Jeanine Adinaro 54:29
Oh, I don't even know what that's about.
David Jones 54:31
Oh, that's like a holiday thing. Right?
Jeanine Adinaro 54:33
I think that sits next to the tater tot casserole.
David Jones 54:35
Oh my god.
Jeanine Adinaro 54:36
I had never had that. I've seen pictures. I've never had it though.
David Jones 54:39
Anyway, so I think that's probably wrap. What do you think? I think that's a wrap. That's a wrap.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai