CBD - Is it legal, is it good, does it work... dude?

November 19, 2019

CBD - Is it legal, is it good, does it work... dude?

David Jones 0:02
Welcome to HearPhyto a podcast about herbs. That's mostly about herbs

Jeanine Adinaro 0:06
HearPhyto is what happens when you take one herb nerd, and one podcast enthusiast, and give them microphones. We're both herb loving acupuncturist who hear a lot of bad information about herbs.

David Jones 0:17
So in each episode, we're going to try and tease the good from the bad about one herb or supplement.

Jeanine Adinaro 0:22
I'm Jeanine

David Jones 0:23
and I'm Dave, this is


And now we are recording.

Jeanine Adinaro 0:40
Okay, so I pulled this quote off of the My Fitness Pal blog. And for those of you not familiar, the My Fitness Pal blog and the associated app, are put out by Under Armour, and they do it to promote their line of you know, everything Under Armour makes. This is very mainstream blog we're talking about here. And it said "not since fish oil has a supplement so heavily been so heavily promoted for its breath of effects. CBD oil has prompted claims that can reduce anxiety, improve sleep, boost workout recovery, relieve pain and even benefit brain and heart health." So I think it's fair to say that CBD oil has very much come into the mainstream supplement arena. And I get a lot of questions about it. I know you get a lot of questions about it. So that's why we're talking about it today.

David Jones 1:32
I do get a lot of questions about it.

Jeanine Adinaro 1:34
Okay, well, let's just dive in then.

David Jones 1:37
All right.

Jeanine Adinaro 1:38
So the first question that I get asked all the time, is CBD oil marijuana?

David Jones 1:45
Yeah. What do you tell people?

Jeanine Adinaro 1:47
Well, I tell them that they have a relationship, but they're like fraternal twins. They're related. And they're related pretty closely, but they're not identical.

David Jones 1:59
So one of the big differences between CBD and marijuana, CBD doesn't get you high. The other thing is, under the law CBD is derived only from industrial hemp. And part of what defines industrial hemp is having a THC, and that's the stuff that gets you high, having a THC content below 0.3% and that's from industrial hemp. The Latin binomial for industrial hemp is cannabis sativa. But the cannabis sativa is also a plant that you've probably heard of because it has THC in it. But in this case, that's it's the same plant. But the one that gets you high is just the drug cultavar. And it'd be the same way of thinking about the poppies in your grandma's garden. Probably not going to make the highest grade of heroin. Technically, they're Papaver somniferum, they're opium poppy, but I get I would bet the the stuff that they're growing in Afghanistan probably has has been, they've used selective breeding to make those poppies much, much stronger.

Jeanine Adinaro 3:09
Yeah, and certainly the folks that I know who are longtime recreational weed users will tell you, there is a marked and notice difference in the quality of weed that you get now versus 25 years ago. But so it seems like this probably a good time to explain to people that CBD stands for ...

David Jones 3:29
Tetrahydrocannabinol is THC. Cannabidiol is CBD.

Jeanine Adinaro 3:33
And they both exist in hemp plants. And what separates industrial hemp from the stuff that you smoke or ingest to get stoned is their concentrations.

David Jones 3:48
Right. So sort of, it's mainly the concentration of the THC. If industrial hemp had zero CBD in it, it's still be industrial hemp. But it has anything above 0.3% THC, then it's considered under law to be the drug cultivar. So what's next? What else you got?

Jeanine Adinaro 4:07
Alright, so let's do a little history of CBD oil.

David Jones 4:14
How far back, we going?

Jeanine Adinaro 4:15
I think to Charlotte's Web.

David Jones 4:17
Okay. All right. What? Well, that's what probably one of the biggest things that people know about CBD oil or CBD is seizures. It helps stop seizures. And it's especially used for kids, kids that have these intractable seizures that no other medication has really helped with. And you'll see this sort of stuff where, you know, they take one little puff and all of a sudden their seizures are gone. And they have to do it a couple of times a day. And it's you know, people were moving to Colorado, so that they could get their kids this medicine. And this has by large driven a lot of the conversation between the laws about CBD.

Jeanine Adinaro 5:02
Let's talk about, though a minute... You talked about how parents were moving to Colorado so they could get CBD oil that had been derived from marijuana plants for their kids. But why didn't they just get CBD oil from industrial hemp plants?

David Jones 5:21
Because industrial hemp was illegal up until very recently.

Jeanine Adinaro 5:23
What? Why? I actually know the answer to this.

David Jones 5:27
Well, then you

Jeanine Adinaro 5:28
I will. I will jump all over this.

David Jones 5:30
You jump all over that because, because I think part of it, a lot of it has to do with the politics.

Jeanine Adinaro 5:37
So in the early part of the 20th century, marijuana, as a recreational drug, was coming under scrutiny. And there's sort of a history of racism tied up with it too, because recreational marijuana use was very popular with African American musicians, particularly. And so it was seen as a black drug that people needed to be protected from. And so there was a move to

David Jones 6:13
There was also a huge component of people coming from Mexico. Yeah, like it was a very rational drug for immigrants.

Jeanine Adinaro 6:22
Yes, brown people. Brown people use marijuana. Yeah, right. And so there was this, let's, we've got a stamp this out, kind of mentality about it. And so the process of making growing marijuana plants illegal started. And the cotton growers at that time said, hey, there's that industrial hemp plant that produces fibers that are direct competition with our cotton fibers. We should leverage what's happening right now to stamp out that competing fiber. And so the cotton industry was actually very into lobbying against, outlawing industrial hemp, and they tangled it up with marijuana use. And said, look, same plant. And they managed to get industrial hemp made illegal. So I just read an article from a subsidiary of USA Today. So I mean, you can even take it. It's USA Today. Right, the purveyors of free newspapers left at hotel room doors. So the State of South Dakota, the state legislature passed both parts, both the House and their Senate passed a bill to legalize industrial hemp production in South Dakota.

David Jones 7:43
When was this?

Jeanine Adinaro 7:45
A couple weeks ago.

David Jones 7:46
So now it's a state and federal law.

Jeanine Adinaro 7:48
Right. So there was a federal law and then the state was going to have some guidelines about setting it up. Okay. And specifically giving their state level agriculture departments the authority to do enforcement stuff. So their state level Senate and House passed the bill and the governor vetoed it. The State House had the two thirds majority to override the veto, but the senate didn't.

David Jones 8:17
Jeanine, why are you giving me this really long winded, "I'm just a bill" for South Dakota's legislature.

Jeanine Adinaro 8:24
I'm just a bill on South Dakota's Capitol Hill. Right? Because, in her official letter about why she vetoed it, even though like the folks in South Dakota, the farmers are like yeah, we want this we can grow this, South Dakota is an awesome place to grow this stuff. She specifically argued that legalizing industrial hemp would lead to legalized marijuana in South Dakota. So even in this new and enlightened age of understanding the difference between THC and CBD, they're still getting all tangled up together.

David Jones 8:58
On an unrelated note, when Puerto Rico becomes a state. I think we should merge North and South Dakota. We don't have to change the flags. 50 stars- done.

Jeanine Adinaro 9:07
Yeah. Okay, I get behind that.

David Jones 9:09
All right. Anyway, so but we're not talking about the Dakotas.

Jeanine Adinaro 9:12
Now that we've alienated everyone living in North and South Dakota,

David Jones 9:16
And hello to both of you.

Jeanine Adinaro 9:18
So CBD oil. The FDA has actually approved two drugs to treat childhood epilepsy that are based on CBD oil. And that's like so that part of the science everybody's like, yes, childhood epilepsy CBD oil. Yeah, that's effective. That's good. All the rest of it the anxiety, social anxiety, insomnia, anti-inflammatory that's kind of out there for debate as far as medical science is concerned. And there are folks who are like, yeah, this is the greatest thing ever. And there's a whole lot of doctors who are like, show me the research and of course there hasn't been much because pretty new that you can even get the CBD oil to work with.

David Jones 10:04
So South Dakota is really ahead of the curve on this one

Jeanine Adinaro 10:07
or not.

David Jones 10:09
Alright, so um,

Jeanine Adinaro 10:11
alright, so we need to talk about, explicitly, is CBD oil legal? And I think the answer is we need to call our friend Justin,

David Jones 10:21
we do need to call her friend Justin.

Jeanine Adinaro 10:32
Hi, Justin, how are you?

Justin 10:34
Doing well,

Jeanine Adinaro 10:35
Are you ready to dive in?

Justin 10:36

Jeanine Adinaro 10:37
All right. So can you please start by introducing yourself?

Justin 10:41
So this is Justin Prochnow. I'm an attorney. In the Denver office of the international law firm Greenberg Traurig. I am the chair of our firms food beverage, dietary supplement and agribusiness practice. So what does that mean? I represent companies in the food, beverage, dietary supplement, cosmetic spaces and help with regulatory issues. Whether it's packaging, labeling, the FDA shows up for an inspection, a company has to do a recall, any kind of those types of things from the FDA perspective, or from the Federal Trade Commission perspective as far as regulating advertising. So I've worked with companies kind of those areas for the last 14-15 years. And I would say in the last two to three years, I'd say the first company that came to me about CBD, and hemp was about five years ago. But more so in the last year to two, there's been a huge increase in the interest obviously in CBD and hemp. I probably never thought I would be a CBD and hemp advisor. I used to be a prosecutor in Denver. But by necessity, because every single one of my clients, it seems like in the last 12 months or so has asked me about whether they can sell a SKU or a line of CBD products. I have become somewhat of an expert in the field of what as much as someone can be right now in the field of how CBD and hemp is currently being regulated. And I suppose I'd say expert, because anyone who tells you they know exactly what the situation is, is just not telling you the truth, because no one knows exactly how everything is going. Because it changes so much on a daily basis. But I've been keeping up with it as much as anyone else. And I think it's a good combination of current existing law for supplements, foods and beverages and kind of the new emerging law around specifically CBD and

Jeanine Adinaro 12:57
That makes you the most qualified person to answer, the most qualified person we know to answer the question, is CBD oil legal?

Justin 13:06
Yes, that is the number one question being asked these days. And I would first point you to the FDA's own guidance that they updated just three days ago, beginning of April here, in which they, they used to have a guidance entitled Marijuana: Questions and Answers. And they've just recently updated it to Cannabis and Cannabis Derived Products: Questions and Answers. And I think right there, that shows a kind of be a movement in the FDA position, because certainly, the FDA has taken the position that CBD is not a permissible ingredient for use in dietary supplements, foods and beverages, due to the fact that it was investigated as a new drug by GW Pharma, back in 2007. And there's a very technical provision of the Food, Drug and Cosmetic Act that says if an ingredient was investigated as a new drug, prior to being used in food, beverage or supplements, you then can't turn around and use it as one. So that's what the FDA has really been hanging its hat on that, you know, it's excluded because of this technical provision, not really because they believe there's safety issues. But it's this technical provision. And so on its face, the FDA says CBD is not legal. But it's, it's a much trickier, I guess, question and answer than that. And, and as I was alluding to, even in the FDA's own Q&A, they asked that very same specific question and question eight of that Q&A and say, is it legal to sell CBD? And the answer from FDA is actually no more that not anymore? No, it is. It depends. And it depends on a variety of factors. And and issues in the law. They still say you can't sell it in a supplement, food or beverage, there are a lot of, I guess, push backs to that, you know, the ingredient investigated by GW Pharma, with a 97 to 98% CBD isolate. If you're selling a full spectrum, hemp extract with 40% CBD or even 60% CBD, is that the same ingredients as a 97 to 98% CBD isolate? Obviously, industry would say no. So if that's the case, then that doesn't precluded it anymore. And so there's a lot of kind of issues at play here. And we can talk about it in a second if you want to. But you know, cosmetics are a whole different kind of area to look at the they aren't precluded by this technical provision and in the FDA's new Q&A, 13 or 14, they specifically say that CBD and hemp is not an ingredient that is prohibited from being used in cosmetic topical products. Now the issue there becomes like claims are you making about it? And does that make it a drug? But, you know, they're still this area is constantly changing? You know, the risk right now is probably not a big risk from the FDA taking action. But it's more from individual states that might walk into a local grocery store convenience store and say, "Hey, you got to take the CBD off the shelves."

Jeanine Adinaro 16:17
Which leads me to my next question, which is what is going on in South Dakota?

Justin 16:24
Well, South, I mean, I would say right now there are five or six, what we would say no fly zones. I mean, it's just you, you shouldn't be going CBD in those states. South Dakota is one. Idaho is one. Ohio is one. Nebraska is typically on those lists. Louisiana just made it clear the other day that they believe CBD and hemp is still scheduled one controlled substance in Louisiana,

Jeanine Adinaro 16:54
Which kind of makes my brain a little confused because I was just in New Orleans. And there are vans parked on the street selling marijuana gummies and other edibles. Like ...

Justin 17:07
You bet. You bet. And, you know, this is the difficult thing right now. It's the patchwork across the country. And it literally changes from week to week, if not even day to day, if people just google CBD, you'll get 20 different articles. And, you know, one week, the, you know, there's an action in Maine where, you know, State Department of Health goes in and pulls product off the shelves. And two weeks later, the governor of Maine signed the bill saying that CBD is legal. You know, you have issues in Texas where, you know, two different counties surrounding Dallas. One county attorney says they're going to exercise enforcement discretion and not really do anything then in the next county, I think it's Tarrant County, the you know, county attorney says that they're going to aggressively go after CBD. And it's not even state by state as county by county sometimes. So it makes it difficult. And what I always tell clients is, this is not a risk free proposition, you know, you better have some risk tolerance, because, you know, you might think it's legal to sell in one state at one point. And of course, we have the overreaching in any state, even where it's, you know, conceptually legal, the FDA could still come in. But you have some states, you know, that it's pretty green light, Colorado, Kentucky, Illinois, Indiana, and then you have other states where depending on what it is, like in California, you can't sell CBD in foods. But you can have marijuana in California. It seems odd, you know, but again, it's because they're following this very technical provision of the FDA. And you know, even in California, there's a bill that's making its way through that with legalize the sale of CBD in California. So it's a constantly changing and evolving landscape. And when you start to see big actors like CVS and Walgreens getting involved, you know that it's, you know, the FDA looks at it and says this is not going away. We need to figure out a way to regulate this properly.

David Jones 19:18
I read that the head of the FDA, Gainey, he was saying something about CBD and he basically took the tone of it exasperated parents, which was, yes, this is against the law. But oh, for Christ's sake, just don't break anything.

Justin 19:36
Right. And this is, this is. Yeah, this is what he said last week. And of course, unfortunately, I think for a lot of people, cuz I think a lot of people feel he was doing a good job. And we kind of knew, you know, he's the known as opposed to, potentially whoever's next, which,

Jeanine Adinaro 19:54
Right, because he resigned right?

Justin 19:57
As we seen from this administration, we could get any one of the number of people that ...

Jeanine Adinaro 20:02
It might be you, Justin!

Justin 20:06
I'm not sure that I want that, uh, that position. Yes, he's, he's resigning might be today his last day, if not next week. And he did say as he was going out that basically, you know, the FDA is going to exercise enforcement discretion. And as long as you're not making crazy disease claims, and you're making a safe product, you know, the FDA has other things on their plate, opioids. And any one of a number of other things that, you know, I think that reinforces it's not a lot of safety concerns over CBD. And the biggest issues is, the biggest issue I find is just the amount of misinformation out there. And it's both being circulated by CBD and hemp companies, but also from regulators and from banks and other say, Well, you know, it's still a schedule 1 substance. Well, it's not, you know, as long as it's under the 0.3% THC. It's no longer a schedule one controlled substance. But there's just a lot of misinformation. And you know, on the other hand, when the farm bill came out, you had CBD and hemp companies saying, Yeah, CBD is legal in all 50 states now. And you know, that's not true, either. It's, you know, it might not be schedule 1 controlled substance. But that doesn't mean it's necessarily legal to sell. So it becomes a difficult kind of web of, of information being put out there from a variety of different sources and, and trying to make your way through that maze can be terribly difficult at times.

David Jones 21:38
Can you speak for just a second about if you have any sense of what's driving the people in places like Terrant county to take the positions that they're taking?

Justin 21:48
I mean, my personal feeling is it's just a lack of full knowledge about what we're talking about here. Again, I think there's an inherent link of, and its understandable, of CBD and industrial hemp to marijuana. And despite what everyone says about is non psychoactive, and it doesn't do it, they still just believe that, you know, it's, it's related to marijuana, and it shouldn't be out there. I mean, there's really no other reason to think that, again, there's no safety issues involved with CBD, there's just really no reason to be taking an aggressive stance on it, when we have all these other things out there that are a lot, you know, more pressing issues. There's just really not not much reason to be doing that, you know, again, the FDA is position out there. You have some State Department of Health people say, well, we're just implementing what the FDA has said. But it's, I mean, in my opinion, it's a lack of knowledge more than anything.

Jeanine Adinaro 22:50
Well, I'm not going to lie to you, Justin, I think I'm more confused now than when we started this phone call. The only, the only thing I'm very clear on now is do not try to buy CBD oil in South Dakota.

Justin 23:01
That is, you shouldn't be able to find it anywhere. Because they've been fairly, it's been pretty tight about it. I mean, again, it's a it is a difficult, you know, especially for companies looking to roll something out nationwide. I mean, I don't think that's something you can do right now. And again, even when you see CVS and Walgreens doing it, you know, they're doing it in eight or nine states, they're not doing it, you know, 50 states nationwide, because there are some states that have specifically said, we don't, we don't want it in our state. And the problem becomes a little bit is, most states might be different next week, and some of them might now allow it. And some of the others might say, No, we don't want it anymore. Like New York, you know, or Texas is kind of going back and forth. And so it does make it difficult, you know, for company wanting to put it out there. You know, what the restrictions are. But again, I think there's less concerned about people buying it, and more concern for the companies looking to sell it.

Jeanine Adinaro 24:06
Well, there you have it. Dave, do you have any other questions for Justin?

David Jones 24:12
Well, I do have one more question. Just real quick, if you, if you got a new a time machine, and you came out of it two years in the future, how would this conversation be different?

Justin 24:23
I mean, it will, it will unquestionably be totally legal in two years. And I would think it'll be less than that. I mean, the FDA generally moves at a snail's pace. But you can see even from this, from the time that the farm bill passed, you know, in December 20, of 2018. And the FDA said, you know, CBD is still not a permissible ingredient. So we're doing it. And now all of a sudden, we're having a public hearing at the end of May, to talk about it, they've revised the Q&A. I mean, there's a, there's a real recognition that this is not going away. And that, you know, again, that they're not the safety concerns associated with some other things. So there's really no reason to take the position that it shouldn't be a permissible ingredient and what what it really can come down to, I think, is determining for them, what percentage makes it you know, a CBD isolate? That is, you know, in line with the exclusionary clause and what makes it a different ingredient that's not precluded. I mean, I think, I think those answers are going to be decided sometime here. I mean, we would hope in the next year, certainly in the next two, that in two years will look back at me remember when CBD wasn't actually, you know, looked at as be legal everywhere. Well that was crazy. I mean, that's just it's going to happen.

Jeanine Adinaro 25:48
And when the FDA makes those decisions, about what percentages make it a drug isolate versus a permissible supplement, like that sort of thing. Will that over ride places like South Dakota?

Justin 26:04
Yeah, yes. I mean, it once the FDA says it's permissible from a federal standpoint. Federal law preempts state law, so states can't say no, if the FDA says, says it's legal to do it. So you know that, depending on how they address it. I mean, states can address issues of the that the federal law has not so, you know, if the FDA specifically says yes, CBD is legal states can't do it. The reason why states are doing it right now is because the FDA hasn't officially said it. They have some guidance that says we don't think it's permissible or not. But there's not a set law on it. And since they don't have a law on it individual states then can do what they want to about it. So depending on how the FDA addresses it, it would preclude states from coming up with their own version.

Jeanine Adinaro 26:58
So because the FDA has been kind of wishy washy and hasn't been super definitive, this is why we get this ambiguity from state to state and county to county.

Justin 27:12
I don't know if I should answer that if I'm up for the job of FDA commissioner.

Jeanine Adinaro 27:15
You just said you didn't want it.

Justin 27:17
That is true. That is true. Yes, you're exactly right. That is exactly why.

Jeanine Adinaro 27:21
Okay, so one last, I'm gonna pick on South Dakota one more time. Is it legal for farmers to grow industrial hemp in South Dakota?

Justin 27:31

Jeanine Adinaro 27:33
Uhhhh. I thought maybe the Farm Bill took care of that.

Justin 27:36
The farm bill took care of that only if the state sets up a pilot program and an industrial hemp program to do it, and South Dakota has not done that.

Jeanine Adinaro 27:45
Right. Okay.

Justin 27:46
It's only legal in states that have set that up like Colorado, Kentucky, you know, a variety of states. New York has set up, you know, pilot programs for growing industrial hemp, but the farm bill only makes that legal in state's have come up with a formal growing program and South Dakota is not one of those.

Jeanine Adinaro 28:06
Yeah, see, there's another piece of misinformation that gets circulated around. People are like Oh, Farm bill passed, so now we can all grow industrial hemp

Justin 28:15
100%. I happen to know South Dakota pretty well, because we do a fair amount of work for some of the Native American Indian tribes. And there's more than a few in South Dakota. And it's a big issue right now, although, since the Native American Indian tribes are kind of sovereign land, they can actually come up with their own formal growing program even in South Dakota. And, you know, the State of South Dakota can't touch them while it's on Native American land. Now if they're transporting

Jeanine Adinaro 28:47
I was gonna say, do they have to then have it airlifted out to Kansas?

Justin 28:54
You know, there might be some quick runs through North Dakota. But, but those are I mean, South Dakota is definitely at the top of the no fly list right now.

Jeanine Adinaro 29:06
Well, there you go. Did you ever think you would end up here when you were in law school?

Justin 29:12
No, I mean, my dad has been in, you know, this industry to some extent before. But now, as I said, right after law school I was a prosecutor in Denver for a couple years. Let's put it this way. I had a few prosecutions against former Denver Broncos for possession of drug paraphernalia.

Jeanine Adinaro 29:32
I was gonna ask, were you prosecuting marijuana related crimes?

Justin 29:36
Definitely. You know, I had a few former Broncos, and now I'm working with a former Denver Bronco on a new hemp infused beverage. So ...

Jeanine Adinaro 29:47
Awesome, it comes full circle.

Justin 29:49
It definitely changes over the years. And yeah, it's, it's very interesting to see it.

Well, Justin, we really appreciate you taking the time to talk to us about this. Dave, you got anything else?

David Jones 30:06
Thanks again. We really appreciate your expertise and your time.

Jeanine Adinaro 30:14
All right, let's step into our wheelhouse for a minute.

David Jones 30:17

Jeanine Adinaro 30:17
Chinese herbs,

David Jones 30:18
Chinese herbs

Jeanine Adinaro 30:19
Is there any history of using CBD oil or whatever plant part it comes from in Chinese herbs?

David Jones 30:30
So industrial hemp does get used in Chinese medicine. It's a, it's called Da Ma. It means big hemp, it's marijuana. But as you all know, the plant part that gets used is the seeds. And let me take you back to acupuncture school here, Jeanine, what's Huo Ma Ren good for? What are cannabis seeds good for? What do you use them for?

Jeanine Adinaro 30:55
They're really good for clearing constipation.

David Jones 30:57

Jeanine Adinaro 30:58
Like amazingly good. Yeah.

David Jones 31:00
Yeah. And that's, that's like it. As far as Chinese medicine goes, there are a few other things, but it's not about inflammation, or anxiety or sleep, or seizures or anything like that. It's constipation,

Jeanine Adinaro 31:12

David Jones 31:13
So it's one of these things where it's in the materia medica, but it doesn't necessarily get used like what you might think it would get used for.

Marijuana seeds-- constipation.

Jeanine Adinaro 31:26
Right. So there is a history of it, but it's not for childhood epilepsy.

David Jones 31:31

Jeanine Adinaro 31:32
Another question that I get asked a lot is, how do I know if I'm getting good CBD oil?

David Jones 31:40
So... I think this is a really good question. And there are so many manufacturers out there. And there are so many variables and so many different levels of quality. And so I would say that there is a lot of good stuff out there. But there's a lot of really bad stuff out there too. And the recommendation I would make for anybody who wants to buy them is, I would start out buying them from a local retailer who you trust to have done their research. I would say once that you have determined that you really like it or the quality is good, you know, go directly to their website and buy it but, I would talk to somebody, you know, there are some really good brands out there and there are a lot of manufacturers who, who, own the fields, they grow the plants. They they do the production.

Jeanine Adinaro 32:38
It's farm to bottle CBD oil.

David Jones 32:41
It's farm to bottle CBD oil.

Jeanine Adinaro 32:43
Do they give you a little dossier on your plant that this came from the plant...

David Jones 32:47
His name was Steve

So yeah, so there are basically farm to bottle CBD manufacturers and they're also CBD manufacturers who are people who are taking marijuana, right? So high THC stuff, and making CBD isolates as a waste product almost. The only trouble with that is, is you can only sell that in states where recreational marijuana is legal. Because of the way the farm bill is written. The thing that you use to make the CBD, even if it's chemically identical, has to be a plant that has 0.3% or lower THC. So if you make CBD from a plant that has high levels of THC, then you can't sell it in most states right now.

Jeanine Adinaro 33:38
Can they even tell? Like once you've gone to the trouble of isolating the CBD oil, and you have that product in a bottle sitting on the shelf in South Dakota? Can they even tell where it came from?

David Jones 33:53
I think no. I can't imagine how it's just an isolated molecule. I mean, if it's an isolated molecule, how can you possibly tell? Maybe they can but I don't know how.

Jeanine Adinaro 34:05
So, you talked about finding a local retailer that you trust. And at least around here in beautiful Austin, Texas, we seem to have to sort of categories of retailers that have popped up that are selling CBD oil,

David Jones 34:21
Category one?

Jeanine Adinaro 34:23
The local natural health, pharmacy of goodness, where good is spelled with an E. And they're the same folks where you go to buy your calcium supplement and your fish oil and get your pharmaceuticals compounded.

David Jones 34:39
And the folks who work there generally really knowledgeable

Jeanine Adinaro 34:41
Right. But then we also have, I have noticed, a number of retail fronts that have the, what's supposed to look like the Red Cross associated with medical stuff, but it's green.

David Jones 34:54
Oh, right. Right. Right. Right.

Jeanine Adinaro 34:55
What they, I think what, I and I'm not gonna lie, I haven't been into one of them because they kind of scare me. What they seem to be is places that sell vaping products, like tobacco based vaping products, and they're just waiting. They're just they're like on the edge of their seat waiting for marijuana to be legalized. And then they've already got their store front set up. So in the meantime, they're selling CBD oil and it becomes a question of, do you trust the guy wearing the t-shirt that says it's four-twenty somewhere to be the expert on CBD oil quality

David Jones 35:28
I, and i think you probably know this to, like do not underestimate being really interested in something as being a huge motivator for learning all kinds of things that you didn't think somebody might be able to learn. Some of those, some of those, you know, it's four-twenty somewhere kids really know their stuff about a narrow window of things. And I might, you know, it's up to anybody, but I would certainly listen to them.

Jeanine Adinaro 35:54
All right.

I also was looking at the trade publication for acupuncturist and there was an advertisement for a product, which is a topical, they have a whole line of topical CBD containing, I'm assuming their creams, yeah, it says cream on the label. And it's the revolutionary pain relief formula. And I also notice that on the ingredient list and it isn't just CBD oil. It's got 4% lidocaine. So yeah, I bet that's going to make your pain go away, because the lidocaine is doing it. But whatever. They also make products where they are mixing it with menthol, and what's the other one camphor?

David Jones 36:44
Camphor and capsaicin. Yeah, those are the three that usually go together for pain relief.

Jeanine Adinaro 36:49
So they have ones where they're mixing the CBD with topical, what we would call supplements.

David Jones 36:56
Whatever it is, in that formula, it isn't the CBDs, that are doing the heavy lifting.

Jeanine Adinaro 37:00
It's the lidocaine. And yet these folks are advertising to acupuncture practitioners. And my guess is there's going to be acupuncture practitioners, who are gonna be like, Oh, yeah, totally going to carry this in my clinic cuz it works really well. They may or may not have read the part about the lidocaine?

David Jones 37:13
Well, it probably does work really well.

Jeanine Adinaro 37:18
And now you have somebody who's in a really trusted, authoritative position, recommending a product going "Yeah, CBD oil!"

David Jones 37:27
Okay, I don't think they're gonna hurt anybody?

Jeanine Adinaro 37:30
No, I don't think they're gonna hurt anybody. But I just, I think it's probably not worth the extra money.

David Jones 37:36
Probably not. And that's another good question, I think is how much is an appropriate amount to pay for CBDs? Cuz I, you can find 500 milligrams in some sort of oil base for 50 bucks. But you can find that same CBDs in all oil base, you know, 500 milligrams for $90. The prices are all over the place.

Jeanine Adinaro 38:02

David Jones 38:03
And so I, I think that 50 for 500 milligrams is a little bit for an oil supplement is a little bit closer to rational, you know, based on the costs that I know, that's not a huge markup. But the thing that you have to think about is, in some sense, bio-availability, because different forms, like if there are, there are a lot of companies now selling water soluble, nano-encapsulated CBDs, and they say that they they get into the bloodstream faster, they're more bioavailable, so you need a lot lower doses of them. Where, you know, four or five milligrams might do. Whereas you might have to take 20 of somebody else's. And so if you're paying a lot more for these sort of higher tech CBDs, it may come with some sort of an advantage that you would have lower doses, there may be a cost savings there.

Jeanine Adinaro 39:01
So I don't I don't feel like we've actually offered our listeners any guidance on how to find good quality CBD oil.

David Jones 39:07
Well, I would say, if you want to buy it online, almost every CBD retailer is going to have a phone number. You know, get your phone and all them And have a couple of questions for them. And I would say, Okay, so, where do they get the raw materials? Where do they get the raw materials? How did they process it? Is it, is it a most of them are probably going to use supercritical CO2 or something like that. But if they tell you that they're using hexane or propane, it's not exactly the worst thing ever. Those are very commonly used solvents. So you're probably going to want somebody who grows their own, who has control of that process, you're probably going to want something to use a supercritical CO2 as a solvent. And you're going to want to know that the company had control of the process from start to finish. What else you got?

Jeanine Adinaro 40:06
That's what I got for questions.

David Jones 40:08
All right. Well, I don't know I call that a wrap. You call that around?

Jeanine Adinaro 40:11
I call that a wrap.

David Jones 40:12
All right. That's a wrap.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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